INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy

Pursuant To Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and S.J. Res. 137, 88th Congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

Volume
VII

UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON, D.C.

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U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402

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PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman

Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission's Report.

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Preface

The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume VII: Johnny Calvin Brewer, Julia Postal, Warren H. Burroughs, Bob K. Carroll, Thomas Alexander Hutson, C. T. Walker, Gerald Lynn Hill, J. M. Poe, John Gibson, James Putnam, Rio S. Pierce, Calvin Bud Owens, William Arthur Smith, George Jefferson Applin, Jr., Ray Hawkins, Sam Guinyard, and Helen Markham, who were present either in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene or at the Texas Theatre, where Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested; L. D. Montgomery, Marvin Johnson, Seymour Weitzman, W. R. Westbrook, Elmer L. Boyd, Robert Lee Studebaker, C. N. Dhority, Richard M. Sims, Richard A. Stovall, Walter Eugene Potts, John P. Adamcik, Henry M. Moore, F. M. Turner, Guy F. Rose, W. E. Perry, Richard L. Clark, Don R. Ables, Daniel Gutierrez Lujan, C. W. Brown, L. C. Graves, James R. Leavelle, W. E. Barnes, J. B. Hicks, Harry D. Holmes, James W. Bookhout, Manning C. Clements, Gregory Lee Olds, H. Louis Nichols, and Forrest V. Sorrels, who participated in or observed various aspects of the investigation into the assassination; William J. Waldman and Mitchell J. Scibor, who testified concerning the purchase of the rifle used in the assassination; Heinz W. Michaelis, who testified concerning the purchase of the revolver used to kill Officer Tippit; J. C. Cason, Roy S. Truly, Warren Caster, Eddie Piper, William H. Shelly, and Mrs. Donald Baker, employees at the Texas School Book Depository Building; Edward Shields, an attendant at a parking lot near the TSBD; Thomas J. Kelley and John Joe Howlett of the Secret Service and J. C. Day, J. W. Fritz, and Marrion L. Baker of the Dallas police, all of whom participated in the investigation into the assassination; Mary Jane Robertson, a secretary with the Dallas police; Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt, a photography expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; James C. Cadigan, a questioned document expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; Earlene Roberts, housekeeper in the roominghouse occupied by Lee Harvey Oswald at the time of the assassination; Senator Ralph W. Yarborough, who was riding in the motorcade; Kenneth O'Donnell, Lawrence F. O'Brien, and David F. Powers, assistants to President Kennedy, who were riding in the motorcade and testified concerning the planning of the Dallas trip and the motorcade; Clifton C. Carter, assistant to President Johnson, Earle Cabell, former Mayor of Dallas, and Mrs. Earle Cabell, all of whom were riding in the motorcade; Philip L. Willis, James W. Altgens, and Abraham Zapruder, who took pictures of the motorcade during the assassination, and Linda K. Willis, Philip L. Willis' daughter; Buell Wesley Frazier, who drove Oswald home on the evening of November 21, and back to work on the morning of November 22; Joe Marshall Smith, Welcome Eugene Barnett, Eddy Raymond Walthers, James Thomas Tague, Emmett J. Hudson, and Edgar Leon Smith, Jr., who were present at the assassination scene; Perdue William Lawrence, a Dallas police captain who testified concerning the positioning of policemen along the motorcade route; Ronald G. Wittmus, a fingerprint expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; Robert A. Frazier, Cortlandt Cunningham, and Charles L. Killion, firearms identification experts with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; Robert Brock, Mary Brock, and Harold Russell, who were present in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene; and David Goldstein, the owner of a firearms store in Dallas.

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Contents

  Page Preface v

class="tdl p1">Testimony of— Johnny Calvin Brewer 1 Julia Postal 8 Warren H. Burroughs 14 Bob K. Carroll 17 Thomas Alexander Hutson 26 C. T. Walker 34 Gerald Lynn Hill 43 J. M. Poe 66 John Gibson 70 James Putnam 74 Rio S. Pierce 76 Calvin Bud Owens 78 William Arthur Smith 82 George Jefferson Applin, Jr 85 Ray Hawkins 91 L. D. Montgomery 96 Marvin Johnson 100 Seymour Weitzman 105 W. R. Westbrook 109 Elmer L. Boyd 119 Robert Lee Studebaker 137 C. N. Dhority 149, 380 Richard M. Sims 158 Richard S. Stovall 186 Walter Eugene Potts 195 John P. Adamcik 202 Henry M. Moore 212 F. M. Turner 217 Guy F. Rose 227 W. E. Perry 232 Richard L. Clark 235 Don R. Ables 239 Daniel Gutierrez Lujan 243 C. W. Brown 246 L. C. Graves 251 James R. Leavelle

tag="{http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml}a">260 W. E. Barnes 270 J. B. Hicks 286 Harry D. Holmes 289, 525 James W. Bookhout 308 Manning C. Clements 318 Gregory Lee Olds 322 H. Louis Nichols 325 Forrest V. Sorrels 332, 592 William J. Waldman 360 Mitchell J. Scibor 370 Heinz W. Michaelis 372 J. C. Cason 379 Roy S. Truly 380, 591 Warren Caster 386 Eddie Piper 388 William H. Shelley 390 Edward Shields 393 Sam Guinyard 395 J. C. Day 401 Thomas J. Kelley 403, 590 J. W. Fritz 403 Mary Jane Robertson 404 Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt 410 James C. Cadigan 418 Earlene Roberts 439 Hon. Ralph W. Yarborough 439 Kenneth P. O'Donnell 440 Lawrence F. O'Brien 457 David F. Powers 472 Clifton C. Carter 474 Earle Cabell 476 Mrs. Earle Cabell 485 Philip L. Willis 492 Linda Kay

Willis 498 Helen Markham 499 Mrs. Donald Baker 507 James W. Altgens 515 Buell Wesley Frazier 531 Joe Marshall Smith 531 Welcome Eugene Barnett 539 Eddy Raymond Walthers 544 James Thomas Tague 552 Emmett J. Hudson 558 Edgar Leon Smith, Jr 565 Abraham Zapruder 569 Perdue William Lawrence 577 Ronald G. Wittmus 590 Robert A. Frazier 590 Cortlandt Cunningham 591 Charles L. Killion 591 John Joe Howlett 592 Marrion L. Baker 592 Robert Brock 593 Mary Brock 593 Harold Russell 594 David Goldstein 594

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EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

  Page Baker Exhibit No. 1 512 Barnes Exhibit: A 273 B 273 C 273 D 273 E 273 F 275 Brock (Mary) Exhibit A. 593 Brock (Robert) Exhibit A. 593 Cabell Exhibit No. 1 476 Cadigan Exhibit No.: 1 419 2 419

in3">3 419 3-A 420 4 420 5 421 6 421 7 421 8 421 9 421 10 421 11 423 12 424 13 424 14 425 15 428 16 428 17 428 18 428 19 428 20 429 21 429 22 431 23 432 24 432 25 436 26 437 27 437 28 437 29 437 30 437 Dhority Exhibit: A 154 B 154 Gibson Exhibit A 71 Hill Exhibit: A 50 B 52 C 53 Holmes Exhibit No.: 1 292 1-A 527 2

href="@public@vhost@g@gutenberg@html@files@44007@[email protected]#Page_294" class="pginternal" tag="{http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml}a">294 2-A 528 3 295 3-A 529 4 297 5 307 6 307 Hudson Exhibit No. 1 562 Kelley Exhibit A 403 Lawrence Exhibit No.: 1 579 2 585 3 586 4 589 Leavelle Exhibit A. 270 Markham Exhibit No.: 1 500 2 505 Michaelis Exhibit No.: 1 374 2 377 3 377 4 378 5 378 Moore Exhibit No. 1 214 Nichols Exhibit A 332 Potts Exhibit: A-1 198 A-2 198 B 202 C 202 Putnam Exhibit No. 1 75 Robertson Exhibit No.: 1 406 2 406 3 409 Russell Exhibit A 594 Shaneyfelt Exhibit No.: 1 410 2 410 3 410 4 410 5

href="@public@vhost@g@gutenberg@html@files@44007@[email protected]#Page_413" class="pginternal" tag="{http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml}a">413 6 416 7 417 Sims Exhibit A 182 Sorrels Exhibit No.: 4 341 5 360 Stovall Exhibit: A 190 B 193 C 195 D 195 Studebaker Exhibit: A 139 B 139 C 140 D 141 E 142 F 144 G 145 H 146 I 146 J 147 Tague Exhibit No. 1 556 Turner Exhibit No. 1 222 Waldman Exhibit No.: 1 361 2 363 3 363 4 364 5 364 6 366 7 366 8 366 9 367 10 367 Weitzman Exhibit: D 108 E 108 F 108 Westbrook Exhibit: A 114 B

class="pginternal" tag="{http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml}a">117 C 117 D 117 Willis Exhibit No. 1 497 Yarborough Exhibit A 440

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Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy

TESTIMONY OF JOHNNY CALVIN BREWER

The testimony of Johnny Calvin Brewer was taken at 3:15 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Belin. Will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Brewer. I do.

Mr. Belin. Would you please state your name for the record?

Mr. Brewer. Johnny Calvin Brewer.

Mr. Belin. How old are you, Mr. Brewer?

Mr. Brewer. Twenty-two.

Mr. Belin. Where do you live?

Mr. Brewer. 512 North Lancaster, apartment 102.

Mr. Belin. What city and state?

Mr. Brewer. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Belin. Were you born in Texas?

Mr. Brewer. Born in Miami, Okla.

Mr. Belin. In Oklahoma?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. When did you move to Texas?

Mr. Brewer. About 2 years after I was born. My father was foreman on a construction company and we moved to Texas.

Mr. Belin. Where did you go to school in Texas, please, sir?

Mr. Brewer. I went first year in Lockhart. The second year we moved to Houston, for a year, and we moved back to Lockhart, and I went there 10 years in Lockhart.

Mr. Belin. You graduated from high school?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did you go to school after you graduated from high school?

Mr. Brewer. I went to Southwest Texas State Teachers College in San Marcos a year, and a year in Nixon Clay Business College in Austin.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Brewer. I got married and quit school and went to work for Hardy's Shoe Store. I—that was in September, and I got married in December. And I have been with them ever since.

Mr. Belin. When did you go to work for Hardy's Shoe Store?

Mr. Brewer. In September of 1961.

Mr. Belin. Do they assign you to any particular store?

Mr. Brewer. I worked at the Capital Plaza Shopping Center in Austin for about 10 months, and then they transferred me to Dallas and gave me a store down on Jefferson.

Mr. Belin. In Austin were you just a shoe salesman?

Mr. Brewer. I was assistant manager.

Mr. Belin. And they transferred you to a shop on Jefferson?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. In Dallas?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. What is the address of that shop in Dallas?

Mr. Brewer. 213 West Jefferson.

Mr. Belin. They made you the manager of that shop?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. How long have you been manager?

Mr. Brewer. Since August of 1962.

Mr. Belin. From August 1962 on?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Until the present time?

Mr. Brewer. Until the day I was made manager of the downtown store.

Mr. Belin. Today is the 2d of April, or the 3d?

Mr. Brewer. Second.

Mr. Belin. You were made manager of the Hardy's Downtown Shoe Store?

Mr. Brewer. Yes, sir. It wasn't April Fool's. I thought they were firing me, but it turned out they weren't.

Mr. Belin. Did he call you in yesterday to tell you?

Mr. Brewer. Day before yesterday and told me to get ready for an audit, that I would be going to town, if I wanted it, and I said yes.

Mr. Belin. Would this be considered a promotion?

Mr. Brewer. A better store, more volume, and make more money. It would be considered a promotion.

Mr. Belin. Any children at all, Mr. Brewer?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. I want to take you back to November 22, 1963. This was the day that President Kennedy was assassinated. How did you find out about the assassination, Mr. Brewer?

Mr. Brewer. We were listening to a transistor radio there in the store, just listening to a regular radio program, and they broke in with the bulletin that the President had been shot. And from then, that is all there was. We listened to all of the events.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear over the radio that the President had died?

Mr. Brewer. I heard a rumor. They said that—one of the Secret Service men said that the President had died, and said that was just a rumor.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember hearing anything else over the radio concerning anything that happened that afternoon?

Mr. Brewer. Well, they kept reconstructing what had happened and what they had heard, and they talked about it in general. There wasn't too much to talk about. They didn't have all the facts, and just repeated them mostly. And they said a patrolman had been shot in Oak Cliff.

Mr. Belin. Is Oak Cliff the area in which your shoe store was located?

Mr. Brewer. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. All right, would you describe what happened after you heard on the radio that an officer had been shot?

Mr. Brewer. Well, there was heard a siren coming down East Jefferson headed toward West Jefferson.

Mr. Belin. What is the dividing street between East and West

Jefferson?

Mr. Brewer. Beckley.

Mr. Belin. How far is Beckley from your store?

Mr. Brewer. Two blocks.

Mr. Belin. Two blocks to the east or to the west?

Mr. Brewer. There is Zangs to the east. The first street is Zangs and the next street is Beckley.

Mr. Belin. The first street east is Zangs Boulevard and the next street is Beckley?

Mr. Brewer. Yes, right.

Mr. Belin. Is your store located to the north or south side of Jefferson?

Mr. Brewer. On the north.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Brewer. I looked up and out towards the street and the police cars——

Mr. Belin. When you looked up, did you step out of the store at all?

Mr. Brewer. No; I was still in the store behind the counter, and I looked up and saw the man enter the lobby.

Mr. Belin. When you say the lobby of your store, first let me ask you to describe how is—how wide is your store, approximately?

Mr. Brewer. About 20 feet.

Mr. Belin. All right, is the entrance to your store right on the sidewalk?

Mr. Brewer. The entrance to the store is about 15 feet from the sidewalk, front doors.

Mr. Belin. The front doors?

Mr. Brewer. Yes; they are recessed, and then there is windows, show windows on each side.

Mr. Belin. This would be, if we were—if we would take a look at the letter "U," or see the letter "V," your doorway would be at the bottom part of the letter and the show cases would be at the sides of the letter, is that correct?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. What you call this lobby, that is the area between the sidewalk and your front door, is that correct?

Mr. Brewer. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. All right, you saw a man going into what you referred to as this lobby area?

Mr. Brewer. Yes; and he stood there with his back to the street.

Mr. Belin. When did he go in now? What did you hear at the time that he stepped into this lobby area?

Mr. Brewer. I heard the police cars coming up Jefferson, and he stepped in, and the police made a U-turn and went back down East Jefferson.

Mr. Belin. Where did he make the U-turn?

Mr. Brewer. At Zangs.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember the sirens going away?

Mr. Brewer. Yes; the sirens were going away. I presume back to where the officer had been shot, because it was back down that way. And when they turned and left, Oswald looked over his shoulder and turned around and walked up West Jefferson towards the theatre.

Mr. Belin. Let me hold you a minute. You used the word Oswald. Did you know who the man was at the time you saw him?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. So at the time, you didn't know what his name was?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. Will you describe the man you saw?

Mr. Brewer. He was a little man, about 5'9", and weighed about 150 pounds is all.

Mr. Belin. How tall are you, by the way?

Mr. Brewer. Six three.

Mr. Belin. So you say he was about 5'9"?

Mr. Brewer. About 5'9".

Mr. Belin. And about 150?

Mr. Brewer. And had brown hair. He had a brown sports shirt on. His shirt tail was out.

Mr. Belin. Any jacket?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. What color of trousers, do you remember?

Mr. Brewer. I don't remember.

Mr. Belin. Light or dark?

Mr. Brewer. I don't remember that either.

Mr. Belin. Any other clothing that you noticed?

Mr. Brewer. He had a T-shirt underneath his shirt.

Mr. Belin. Was his shirt buttoned up all the way?

Mr. Brewer. A couple of buttons were unbuttoned at the time.

Mr. Belin. Light complexioned or dark?

Mr. Brewer. Light complexioned.

Mr. Belin. All right. After you saw him in the lobby of your store there, what you call a lobby area, which is really kind of an extension of the sidewalk, then you saw him leave?

Mr. Brewer. Yes, he turned and walked up toward——

Mr. Belin. Had the police sirens subsided at the time he turned, or not?

Mr. Brewer. No; you could still hear sirens.

Mr. Belin. Did they sound like they were coming toward you or going away?

Mr. Brewer. They were going away at that time.

Mr. Belin. Going the other way?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. How could you tell?

Mr. Brewer. They were getting further in the distance.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you see this man do?

Mr. Brewer. He turned and walked out of the lobby and went up West Jefferson toward the theatre, and I walked out the front and watched him, and he went into the theatre.

Mr. Belin. What theatre is that?

Mr. Brewer. Texas Theatre.

Mr. Belin. Why did you happen to watch this particular man?

Mr. Brewer. He just looked funny to me. Well, in the first place, I had seen him some place before. I think he had been in my store before. And when you wait on somebody, you recognize them, and he just seemed funny. His hair was sort of messed up and looked like he had been running, and he looked scared, and he looked funny.

Mr. Belin. Did you notice any of his actions when he was standing in your lobby there?

Mr. Brewer. No; he just stood there and stared.

Mr. Belin. He stared?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Was he looking at the merchandise?

Mr. Brewer. Not anything in particular. He was just standing there staring.

Mr. Belin. Well, would you state then what happened? You said that you saw him walk into the Texas Theatre?

Mr. Brewer. He walked into the Texas Theatre and I walked up to the theatre, to the box office and asked Mrs. Postal if she sold a ticket to a man who was wearing a brown shirt, and she said no, she hadn't. She was listening to the radio herself. And I said that a man walked in

there, and I was going to go inside and ask the usher if he had seen him.