and that they have been violating it, and that we do not want them to violate it.

Mr. Bonynge. As a matter of good legislation, do you think we ought to have a criminal procedure of that kind where the ordinary person would not conceive that he was guilty of a crime?

Mr. Serven. The ordinary person, who is not a musician, who does not play in any musical society, would not pick that up; but not one person in a million is attempting to perform such a production without associating with himself many persons who are familiar with the law.

Mr. Bonynge. My friend Mr. Chaney says he is a singer. Until this matter was called to his attention it is not at all unlikely that he would rent such a book and sing it, together with other singers, at an entertainment given for charity, and according to this he would be guilty of a crime.

Mr. Serven. I doubt it, unless he had attempted to form a company for the purpose of performing it.

Mr. Chaney. Of course you would have to get the singers together.

Mr. Serven. You would have to do more than that; you would have to do the same thing that is done with a dramatic composition, and the remedy is the same in this case for a musical drama that it is for a tragedy or any other drama; the condition is the same, the remedy is the same, and if it is a wrong to the dramatist in one case it is a wrong to the music publisher in the other.

Mr. Chaney. You take a church organization that seeks to raise money, for instance, to buy a pipe organ; they send to Mr. Tams or somebody who has these books, and they tell him how many they would like to get, and ask him how much he will charge for them, and it may be that sometimes they could get them for just the expense of the express charges and the payment for any damage or for any books destroyed. They go ahead and produce that musical operetta. Now, they have committed a crime?

Mr. Serven. No; because before that they have to have somebody who is a musical director, who knows about it.

Mr. Chaney. That goes with the performance——

Mr. Serven. There is not such a person as that in the United States, I assume, that does not know just exactly what the provisions of law are.

Mr. Bonynge. But he is not the only person who would be guilty of the crime. Those in the chorus would be guilty of the crime.

Mr. Serven. But here is the point——

Mr. Chaney. The person who proposes to organize such an oratorio usually proposes it to the church.

Mr. Serven. As a matter of fact, I have been informed that Mr. Tams is the principal gentleman in the United States who is doing that sort of thing, to persuade people to violate this statute. Why? Because it is to his profit. At least we assume it is, because, according to his ratings, and so forth, we understand he has made a large amount of money in this particular business. In fact, it has been suggested that Mr. Tams's financial standing compares very favorably with some of these musical composers we have heard about.

The Chairman. I want to put into the record at this point this notice.

Mr. Tindale. May I correct a typographical error?

The Chairman. No; read it just as it is.

Mr. Tindale. (reading from the first page of a musical composition):

You do not allow any comments?

The Chairman. We will ask for comments. How lately have you been putting that notice in your copyright books?

Mr. Tindale. For about four years.

The Chairman. Does that give any notice to the purchaser of this book that he can not rent or loan it?

Mr. Tindale. It states it in a positive manner instead of a negative manner.

The Chairman. Let me ask you how it gives any notice whatever that the purchaser can not rent or lend the book?

Mr. Tindale. It says that the performing rights are given only by purchase of this copy.

The Chairman. But the original purchaser purchases a copy for every single member of the chorus.

Mr. Tindale. Then we have no objection.

The Chairman. No objection to their loaning them? Then we can fix this in a moment. I want to ask where there is anything in that notice that would give notice to the purchaser that he could not rent or loan those books?

Mr. Serven. He may loan or rent or do what he pleases, but the fellow that borrows is the fellow that that notice affects.

The Chairman. Not at all.

Mr. Serven. It is the fellow that wants to give the public performance.

The Chairman. You call attention to a certain section of the Revised Statutes, and that has nothing to do with this matter at all—the very section you call attention to.

Mr. Serven. Even with such a notice, it strikes me that that does not affect what the law does require.

The Chairman. That is not the question. What the committee is getting at is whether you give the people you sell these books to any notice at all that they can not rent them?

Mr. Chaney. What information would that notice give them?

Mr. Tindale. I take it that they would have notice that they had to do something, Mr. Tams having bought the copy.

The Chairman. I am not talking about Mr. Tams at all; I am trying to find out whether there is any notice to any musical society—whether there is any warning that they must not lend these books?

Mr. Tindale. The warning consists in the word "only"—can only be secured; and more recent copies——

The Chairman. I am not talking about the people that borrow; I am talking about the people that lend—the church society that buys the copies. Is there anything in that notice that would caution them that they must not lend these books?

Mr. Tindale. The notice has to speak for itself. We think that is a warning.

Mr. Serven. We have no objection to the lending; that is not our point; it is the public performance from the copy that is loaned.

Mr. Webb. For charity or profit or any reason?

Mr. Serven. For any purpose. It is the public performance that is the thing we object to.

The Chairman. What do you think the public would borrow these for if not for public performance?

Mr. Serven. They might want to look at them; somebody might borrow it to look it over.

The Chairman. I don't think they would borrow many copies for that.

Mr. Serven. That is what I say, that we sell almost no copies except for public performances. There are very few people who ever buy these for private inspection. Almost every single copy of this sort is sold for the purpose of public performance, and that is why this very thing has damaged us so much and