class="c6">A. Alypius is better known to me than God, yet even him I know not so well as I would.

R. [17.9—19.2] Look to it now that thy desire be not beyond measure, now that thou comparest them together. Wouldst thou know God just as thou dost Alypius?

A. Nay; nor do I make them the more alike, albeit I name them together. But I say that one often knoweth more about higher than about lowlier things. I know now about the moon, how it will move to-morrow and other nights; but, I know not what I shall eat to-morrow, which is a baser matter.

R. Then wouldst thou know enough about God, if He should be as well known to thee as the motion of the moon—in what constellation it now is, or into which it is going next?

A. Nay; I wish that He were better known to me than the moon which I see with mine eyes. Yet I do not know but that God may, for some secret reasons, which we know not, change it in another wise; then should I be perplexed in what I now imagine I know about it. But I would have such knowledge about God, in my reason and in my understanding, that nothing could disturb me, nor bring me into any doubt.

R. Dost thou believe, therefore, that I can make thee wiser about God than thou now art about the moon?

A. Yea; I believe it, but I should prefer to know it, for we believe all that we know, and we are ignorant of many things which we believe.

R. Methinks that thou dost not trust the external senses—eyes, ears, smell, taste, and touch—as a means of clearly understanding what thou wouldst, unless thou comprehend it in the mind by the reason.

A. That is true; I trust them not.

R. Wouldst thou know thy servant, whom we were just now speaking of, with the outer senses, or with the inner?

A. I know him now as well as I can know him with the external senses; but I should like to know his mind with my mind; then I should know what was his loyalty toward me.

R. [19.3—20.17] Can one know otherwise than with the mind?

A. It doth not seem to me that I can know it as I would.

R. Dost thou, then, not know thy servant?

A. How can I know him, seeing I am not certain that I know myself? It is said in the law that one shall love his neighbor even as himself. How then do I know in what way I should love him, if I do not know whether I love myself? Nor do I know how he loveth me; yet I know that it is the same with him in regard to me.

R. If thou with the inner sense wouldst know God, why pointest thou me to the outer senses, as if thou wouldst see Him bodily, just as thou formerly saidst thou sawest the moon? I know not therefore how thou teachest it to me, nor can I teach it to any one, by the outer senses. But tell me whether it seemeth enough for thee to know God as Plato and Plotinus knew him?

A. I dare not say that it would seem to me enough, because I know not whether it seemed to them enough in regard to that which they knew. I know not whether it seemed to them that they needed to know more of Him, but even so they formerly seemed to me.[5] When I prayed, methought I did not so fully understand that which I besought as I would. But I still could not forbear to speak about it, just as it seemed to me that I needed, and just as I supposed it was.

R. Methinks now it seemeth to thee that it is one thing to know, and quite another only to suppose.

A. Yea, so methinks; therefore I would now that thou tell me what difference there is between these, or what one certainly knoweth.

R. Knowest thou that thou didst learn the science which we call geometry? In that science thou learnedst on a ball, or an apple, or a painted egg, that thou mightest by the painting understand the motion of the heavens and the course of the stars. Knowest thou that thou didst learn in the same science about a line drawn along the middle of the[20.17—22.10] ball? Knowest thou what was there taught thee about the positions of the twelve stars and the path of the sun?

A. Yea; I know well enough what the line signifieth.

R. Now that thou sayest thou doubtest this no whit, dost thou not fear the Academicians, those philosophers who said that there was never anything certain beyond a doubt?

A. Nay; I do not fear them much, for they said that there never was a wise man. Therefore I am not at all ashamed not to be wise, for I know that as yet I am not wise; but if I ever become as wise as they, then I will do as they teach, until I can say that I know without doubt what I seem to myself to know.

R. I do not object at all to thy doing so. But thou sayest thou knowest about the line which was painted on the ball on which thou learnedst the revolution of this heaven; I would know whether thou also knowest about the ball on which the line is drawn.

A. Yea; I know both. No man can mistake that.

R. Didst thou learn with the eyes or with the mind?

A. With both: first with the eyes, then with the mind. The eyes brought me to the understanding; but after I had perceived it, I left off looking with the eyes, and reflected, for it seemed to me that I could contemplate much more of it than I could see, after the eyes had fixed it in my mind. Just so a ship bringeth one over the sea; when he cometh ashore, he letteth the ship stand, for it seemeth to him that he can travel more easily without it than with it. However, it seemeth easier to me to travel by skiff on dry land than to learn any science with the eyes, but without the reason—though the eyes must at times give aid.

R. Therefore thou must needs look rightly with the eyes of the mind to God, just as the ship's anchor-cable is stretched direct from the ship to the anchor, and fasten the eyes of thy mind on God, just as the anchor is fastened in the earth. Though the ship be out among the sea-billows, it will remain sound and unbroken if the cable holdeth, since one end of it is fast to the earth and the other to the ship.

A. [22.11—24.7] What is that which thou callest the mind's eyes?

R. Reason, in addition to other virtues.

A. What are the other virtues?

R. Wisdom, and humility, and honor, and moderation, and righteousness, and mercy, and prudence, and constancy, and benevolence, and chastity, and abstinence. With these anchors thou art able to fasten to God the cable that shall hold the ship of thy mind.

A. May the Lord God make me entirely as thou teachest me [to be]. I would if I could, but I can not understand how I shall be able to obtain these anchors, or how I shall fasten them, except thou teach it to me more clearly.

R. I could teach thee, but I ought first to ask thee how many of this world's lusts thou hast renounced for God. After