would like five minutes more.

The Chairman. I can not give you the time.

Mr. Bonynge. That is all the time we have.

The Chairman. We will hear you for five minutes [addressing Mr. Froemne].

STATEMENT OF MR. HERMAN FROEMNE.

Mr. Froemne. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, first I would wish to try to straighten out a few false statements that were made yesterday, and I want to say that they were made not by mistake, but absolutely——

The Chairman. I don't think we want anything of that kind to go in the record.

Mr. Froemne. I wish to say that according to these very interests and the statements made in evidence the rights of performance can only be secured by the purchase of a copy of the score for each and every singer taking part. A copy of each score was bought for the past fifteen years by Mr. Tams. The publishers knew he was renting it out. It has only been a few months ago they wanted to make a stop of it, and I will now say that for the future—from now on—he should not have the right, or any other library have the right, to rent them out; but he certainly has a right to the use of the stock he has, which he bought and paid for. He does not reprint them, you understand. My friend refers you to a patent. Look at a patent. A patent has two sides to it. You have a right to buy a patented machine, but you have no right to manufacture it.

Now, we are not making plates to print these books. We don't buy one book and print a thousand of them and rent them out. That would be an infringement; but we are paying whatever the price of it is, 20 cents or 30 cents or a dollar for each book, and we have bought thousands of books, and these music publishers have received from Mr. Tams from $3,000 to $4,000 a year for the past fifteen years. Where is the justice now, when he has his place stocked up, in preventing him from making any profit on it? He has his musical library in connection with his other library; he rents out dramatic compositions and other things on which royalties are being paid.

Mr. Gill. May I make a suggestion? As to what he has already purchased, his rights in that connection and the conditions under which he purchased would be for the courts to determine, would it not?

Mr. Froemne. Yes.

Mr. Gill. We can not affect that in any way?

Mr. Froemne. True. But I am saying now where one of these church choirs can rent the music it is a great blessing. I have some letters here to that effect, saying it is a great advantage to them to have a place where they can rent a book which is sold for from 50 cents to a dollar, the rent being, probably, only 10 cents apiece, or, say, one-sixth the cost. As I explained yesterday—some of you gentlemen were not here—these societies can only use a book once a year. They can not give the same performance two years in succession, and it is to their advantage either to change it, or, if they bought the books, to turn them over to another society, which it seems they should have the right to do, as they have once paid for the book. If you buy a sewing machine or any other patented article you have a right to sell it or rent it or give it away, although you have no right to manufacture it—that would be an infringement of the patent.

Mr. Chaney. What is that suit you were going to explain?

Mr. Froemne. I will explain it. There are in this association of publishers about 25 members, and of those 25 members, I believe I told you yesterday, a number of them are absolutely fair and just; and like any other organization, you will find a few that are not; and this circular, in which there was an attempt made to have every member sign them, only secured seven signatures, or eight, of which Mr. Ditson represented three. He is from Boston, New York, and Philadelphia, as he told you himself. This circular was sent out last January, and has injured Mr. Tams, not in the renting of these particular cantatas, masses, and so forth, but other works which he has, and publications of his own. Now, I will show you where Mr. Tams's profits come in on publications which he owns. He can print thousands of them, costing him only 1 or 2 cents apiece, which he rents out at the same price as the publications which he has to buy at 50 cents or a dollar apiece. This circular has stopped him. We have letters in our possession from parties writing to him. I saw one to-day. [Addressing a gentleman.] About what is that last one? I mean before we left New York? [After receiving a suggestion from the gentleman.] "The Crucifixion," a publication by Mr. Tams. Therefore that interferes with the other business, or his library business, for it is conceded, and my friends will not deny, that Mr. Tams has the largest library in the world.

Before coming before your committee to show you we were absolutely fair and just and didn't want anyone to take advantage of this amendment, that the phraseology was absolutely correct, we met their attorney, Mr. Serven, a few days ago, and I explained to him my purpose. He himself saw the justice of it. Mr. Bayly, who represents a reputable house here in Washington (Ellis & Co.)—they didn't sign the circular, by the way—didn't see any impropriety in it, but they said they expected two men from New York, and if they could arrange with them, no doubt the matter would be adjusted. I said: "Change the phraseology; do whatever you like; do not interfere with that property which we have bought and which we claim we have a right to rent in order to at least get our money back, many thousands of dollars, which they cost us." It can not be denied, we can prove it by the bills, that Mr. Tams has paid for the past fifteen years from three to four thousand dollars for books which he bought of them. They knew he had a library; they permitted him to rent it; they knew he had rented it, and it is only recently that they are trying to stop it.

Mr. Sulzer. Do you mean $3,000 or $4,000 a year?

Mr. Froemne. Yes. So making it altogether from $45,000 to $60,000. As he explained to you yesterday, a work can not be loaned out more than five years once a year. It is then worn out, the pages break, and you can not use them any longer. He can not reprint them; if he did, of course he would make himself liable to the provisions of the law. So he doesn't get more than what it costs him for renting it, and it is a blessing to those who rent from him—that is what those societies say. They can go to Mr. Tams or to anyone else, or to another society, and rent these books for 10 cents apiece, or whatever the price.

Now, I want to say that these gentlemen are very unjust, as has been brought out by some of the questions asked by the committee. "What do you object to if this is done without profit?" Well, they don't know exactly, except that they object. That is about the only conclusion I could reach as to what their answers mean. Now, they show great feeling toward charitable organizations—they show what great philanthropists they are——

The Chairman. The time has expired. Anything further you desire to submit can be submitted in writing before next Wednesday, and will go in as part of the hearing. The same privilege will be extended to the music publishers. I want to ask the representatives of the latter gentlemen present what their objection is to a bill if we amend the law in this way: